don't be a robot: theresa reed in conversation with jeanna kadlec
don't be a robot: theresa reed in conversation with jeanna kadlec
life lessons with the tarot lady
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I first had coffee with
in New York City about seven years ago. I was so nervous: I’d been reading and learning from her website, The Tarot Lady, practically since I first started reading tarot for myself in the wake of my catastrophic divorce, coming out, and church-leaving years. Now here I was, a baby occultist, meeting her in person. What I sort-of-knew, but had yet to truly learn, was that Theresa is a teacher at heart, always keen to take fledgling practitioners under her wing. She generously met me for coffee in Times Square, and so began our years of pick-up-where-you-leave-off friendship.Theresa has been a practicing tarot reader, astrologer, and writer for more than three decades. Three decades! In a field full of self-taught social media readers sharing their altars on TikTok, Theresa is the real (tax paying, contract reading, still psychic) deal, and she’s long been teaching the next generation. I’ve come to see Theresa as a friend but also as a mentor; she is unsparing with her business advice and is an essential source of wisdom and counsel when it comes to the self-employed life.
Theresa Reed is the author of The Tarot Coloring Book, Tarot For Troubled Times, Astrology For Real Life (a workbook I recommend to all my students!), Twist Your Fate – Manifest Success with Astrology and Tarot, Tarot: No Questions Asked – Mastering the Art of Intuitive Tarot Reading, The Cards You’re Dealt – How To Deal When Life Gets Real, and the wonderful tarot deck, Tarot for Kids.
An honor and a joy to get to interview her properly for this newsletter. Here, Theresa gets real about literary agents, spirituality, love readings, retirement, and so much more. I love her to pieces, and by the end of this, I’m sure you will, too.
this interview has been edited for length
Jeanna Kadlec: I will ask if you can introduce yourself, because I know and love you, but on the off chance that anyone happens to somehow not know who you are.
Theresa Reed: Well, first of all, thanks for having me. Second of all, my name is Theresa Reed. I'm better known as The Tarot Lady. I have been a professional tarot reader and astrologer now for over 30 years, which is hard to believe. And I am the author of many, many, many books. I think the last book was book number nine, and if you include the books I've written for tarot decks, we can pop in two more.
So I've done a lot of writing and switched gears over the years, away from reading for the public to putting out information. I'm a typical Gemini. Let's share the information and break it down so other people can get their hands on this.
JK: I love that because it leads right into something I did want to ask you. You’ve written so much, and since 2019, in the last four or five years, you've published five books, a children's tarot deck, a journal that accompanied a different tarot deck. These last few years especially have been so prolific for you.
I did want to ask about what phase of your career you feel like you're in now? I will call you an elder in the field, and someone so many of us look to as an example of “this is how you do it, and this is how you do it well and with integrity.” What prompted that shift?
TR: I do love sharing information. I've been blogging for a very long time. I did podcasts for a long time. So there's always the desire to teach, because back in the day, when I was trying to learn stuff about tarot and astrology, the pickings were slim. And I grew up in a rural area. It was very, very hard to access anything. I remember how hard it was, and I remember how stupid I felt, because some of the books were so dry that I was like, oh my God, I'm never going to get this. So the sharing information is a huge thing, and it's been a huge part of my work for a long time.
But the books are more about legacy, and that's the thing that I'm headed towards. I'm going to be 60 in a year. So yes, I am an elder. I own my gray hair. I have no issue with being an elder. I'm not one of those people who's depressed about getting old. I'm planning my full-on retirement. I mean, I am into retiring. I was just at my accountant today talking about retirement.
So the books that I'm doing now — it's about creating the legacy, so that when I'm gone, there's something I'm leaving behind that's going to help folks to grasp this information. A lot of this is really poignant to me now, also, because the tarot world lost probably the greatest tarot person, Rachel Pollack, and we're all still so devastated by her loss. I look at the legacy of books she created — and I'm never going to be Rachel Pollack — but she's been such a role model. It's like, you know what? Let's think about what we can leave behind, too. So that really motivates me.
JK: Yeah, but you are like Rachel Pollack for a lot of people. When I started [reading tarot], I was reading Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom. I was also reading you. The two of you were in that [same] category for me.
Theresa, I say it’s like you’re psychic, and of course you are, but you’re bringing up all these questions that I had written down to talk to you about, because you have, in recent years, stepped away from one-on-one client readings. You also started — because I watch you twice a week, every week on Instagram Live, which I think everyone should watch your Instagram Lives. Your week ahead pulls for your audience with the tarot readings that you do for everyone, for the signs and the collective are the only collective readings that I watch and the only collective readings that I really put stock in. They're just really, really spot on and targeted.
But you have started sowing those seeds! Preparing your readers and viewers, preparing your former clients, saying I am retiring. It is coming! And you're setting the expectation that you are going to be stepping back from public practice in a few years [in a way] that I so deeply admire.
Could you talk a little bit about what has informed those choices? Especially the choice — given where you are right now, having stepped back from client practice — and what went into that and what that was like for you. Again, after having practiced for decades.
TR: That’s a very loaded question with a very loaded answer. There's many, many reasons.
Number one, I'm going to be 60, and my capacity for doing readings — I was a high volume reader. It's very different when you get older, and people don't like to admit that. But it is true. And you just find, I can't do eight readings a day anymore. I don't know anybody else who was doing as many readings as I was doing. So number one, you know, there is the capacity, there is the getting older, and I am not unhappy about it. I'm like, okay, your body is telling you [that] you get tired after three readings. Let's maybe not do a whole bunch of readings! So that's part of the reason why we dial back on that.
Number two, once I started really getting books published, I realized, oh my God, my introvert self loves being holed up in my office writing [more] than dealing with humans. No offense, humans. I love humans. But people who know me and love me know that I love to be alone. So writing has really worked well for my introvert nature. It works so, so well for me. I can spend hours by myself perfectly happy researching and writing.
The other thing about getting older is there are a lot of young readers now. It's time to pass the baton. I'm not someone who wants to hang on for dear life and say, oh my God, I've got to be the queen of all tarot and all the tarot books and all of that. There’s all these amazing young readers like Meg, for example. I love Meg Jones Wall. Amazing. V from Red Light Reading is amazing. Hilary Parry Haggerty, great reader. There's all these young readers out there, and writers that are doing amazing things.
I'm really being about passing the torch because I have seen people sometimes, when they get older, they hang on for dear life. They're afraid of getting old. They're afraid of retiring. They're afraid of someone coming along who's going to snap up all the glory. I don't have any attachment to any of that. It's like, no, let's pass the baton. Let's welcome in the next generation and let them take the lead! I don't need to be up here. I'm not like Mitch McConnell hanging on until the end of time. *both laughing*
JK: I feel like it shows in those people, though, spiritually. You’re out here rocking your gorgeous long silver hair and you've got your teal glasses and your red lipstick, and he looks like the Ghost from Christmas Past. I don’t know. You can tell the energetic vibrance of people.
TR: Absolutely. As an elder, I am still very vibrant for my age. I feel great. I still have lots to say and lots to teach. But, like you mentioned, I am very vocal with people, letting them know I am retiring in just a few years. I’m teaching for just a few more years. After that, it is done.
I do have a sick loved one that I need to take care of. I have a grandbaby that's going to need a lot more from me very soon, and I want to make sure I also have time because, again, losing Rachel was a big eye opener. I've lost friends in the last couple of years, and so I want to make sure I'm really present for the people I love. And so I can't be around the clock working all the time. I have to retire.
So I really hope that people do listen, because I gotta tell you, when I told people that I was going to stop reading for the public, people didn't take it seriously. They snapped up all the readings and suddenly I was booked for months, but they didn't get the hint. I said, no, I'm retiring from doing readings. I'm writing now. Some people, still, will email me, and they get really angry at me. I'm like, I told you four years ago. Why weren't you listening? I am getting older. I'm moving towards these different things.
JK: That also, I think, speaks to how much folks in — I don’t want to say audiences, necessarily, but the clients we have and the folks who read us, can become so attached [to us], whether that’s parasocially or whatnot. I encourage folks to divest from the guru mentality — and you do, too! — to have a few different people you see [for spiritual needs]. But when they get so attached to that one person, or to you, when you’re setting that boundary and you’re like, I’m stepping back, some people don’t take it so well. They take it really personally.
TR: I've always been an anti-guru type. When I used to teach yoga before COVID killed my studio, I was like, you guys can wear socks in here. I don't care if you talk throughout the class. Let's just do this yoga and feel better and then go about your business.
I really think that it is important not to be grasp-y with our audience, because when we are grasp-y also and holding on for dear life to our audiences, that's not good for them. I always say people are free to come and go. If you like me, awesome. If you don't, that's great. If you like me for a little while and then you feel you need something different, awesome. I might even refer you to somebody! Let’s be free to come and go and gather the information that we need.
I mean, there are certain people that I'm going to probably be working with for life until they kick me out of the client chair, like Sam Reynolds. I get a reading from him every year. I've had my accountant for almost 30 years. There's certain people you like to stay with forever, but then there's others that you're with for a season or a reason. It's all okay. It's all good.
JK: I mean, I feel that way about seeing you, as one of my people who I go to. You’ll have to kick me out of the client chair.
TR: I'll never kick you out, Jeanna.
JK: But I like that idea of just having an open palm, as it were. You can come in, you can go out, you're not going to clench them down in a fist like that. People can sense that, too. I feel like that desperation is easy to smell.
TR: It's not healthy. What you have to focus on, whether we're writing books, whether we are on social media: just forget about the numbers, focus on doing a great job and really being yourself, and everything's going to work out the way it needs to.
JK: So much of the advice that you've shared with me and with Meg and so many other folks who are practitioners over the years, I think — so often, your advice to us comes down to like, just be yourself and chill the fuck out. I know I always need to hear it. It's the best possible advice to get in this age when so many folks are getting worked up about personal brand and the numbers and all of that.
TR: *scoffs*
JK: I know. That’s where I think that the wisdom of someone like you, who has been in it for so long, and you've ridden the different waves of interest — like right now, it's a peak frenzy of astrology everywhere. And you're always like, just do your thing, Jeanna. Ride it out. It'll still be there tomorrow.
TR: Stop worrying about it. And you know, this all comes down to magic. This is the one thing that people don't understand about magic. I don't go around yapping about magic very much. So a lot of people don't know that I know as much as I know because I'm very closed mouth about it. It's Scorpio stuff.
JK: I was gonna say, it’s your Scorpio moon.
TR: But one of the first things that I learned about magic many, many, many years ago. There's two things. One, you shut your mouth about it. You don't tell anyone you're doing it. But the number two thing: you do your thing, and then you just you're like, okay, it's done. You know it's done, and you forget about it and you don't worry about it. And then when suddenly everything works out, it's like, oh yeah, that's right. Duh, I did that spell.
It's the same with marketing. You just go out there, and you do it. You put your magic out there, you hope it works out, and you don't worry about it. It's just done.
JK: You trust it. You trust that you have a system that works — I mean, system may be a little bit of a technical word to use for that — but you just do your thing. Keep doing it, and be consistent about it, too. That’s the other piece that people, I think, don't so much like when they're looking for the silver bullet.
TR: Consistency is king.
Let’s talk about writing. When I started blogging, I didn't know what the hell I was going to say. My blog pretty much sucked in the beginning, but people still liked it. I was like, okay, well maybe I'm onto something. Then I started taking writing classes to learn to be a better writer, because I realized I've got a comma problem, and I've got to study more.
And here's a really fun story. I actually had somebody who wrote me a hate letter. They were really mad. They said, your writing doesn't sound like you anymore. It sounds good. Or something like that. They’re like, I've lost all respect for you because they thought I was having someone else write my posts. Like, no, I'm taking writing classes.
People get really weird about the weirdest things. But consistency also means learning new things. Growing. And I wrote every day. I just simply wrote every day. That’s how the magic happens, is when we're intentional and consistent and when we're not grasp-y. Works wonders.
JK: I think also what you’re saying there is not being grasp-y with yourself, not grasp-y with your own creativity. Just sitting down paying attention. I love that Mary Oliver quote, it's something like attention is the first step in devotion. It’s so connected. You’re just paying attention. But that's devotion. That's its own form of spirituality. And that is so much what you're saying, too.
TR: Pay attention, be intentional and then relax. I think if people also applied that to their love lives, they’d be a lot happier. A lot happier. Be intentional about who you're with. Know what you like. Be straightforward about it. And then relax.
JK: I cannot imagine how many love readings — how many thousands and tens of thousands, probably, of love readings you have done in your career.
TR: Many. Many, many, many, many. And you know, I love seeing people in love. I am a romantic. But I don't like it when people make terrible, painful choices based on the Cinderella story. People get a lot of bad ideas about what relationships should be, and they make very unhealthy choices. And that makes me sad. You don't have to settle for it. Don't do that. You deserve the best.
JK: We first connected because I was venturing into [professional] tarot reading first, long before I ventured into astrology. But one of the things that got me off of tarot reading — like, not off of tarot reading, because obviously it's something that I do for myself, but that got me off of doing it professionally, was how many people wanted love readings. I was like, I can't do that. Number one, professional tarot reading wasn't for me, generally. And then astrology came into my life, and I was like, oh, this will not let me go. This is clearly the thing.
But with tarot, one of those early indicators was like, I was always interested in reading for people about business or creativity, and no one ever wanted that. They only wanted love readings. And I was like, no, I do not have the energy for this. Bless. It required a level of patience and empathy that I don't think I possessed.
TR: Oh no, you have all of that. But love readings are very hard to do. They really are hard to do. *cue to me laughing so hard that Theresa pivots* No, I know you. You've got beautiful empathy. You've got such a big heart. You're so loving and gracious. You don't have a mean bone in your body.
JK: Mmm. I have a Scorpio Mars, Theresa. *both cackle*
TR: I'm surrounded by [people with] Scorpio Mars. You all are softies at heart, until you get mad.
With love readings, empathy and compassion are super important. But people also need somebody who's going to bring them down to earth and not feed their fantasies. And too many readers do that. I see that happening over on TikTok. And I'm like, you're causing harm, because what you're doing is you're feeding a fantasy. You're not giving this person the information they need to make healthy choices. That’s where we get some real danger with love readings.
With love readings, a lot of what we're conditioned to believe about relationships isn't true in real life. I'm somebody who's had multiple relationships. I've been in a long-term relationship. Relationships are not this thing where there's just, you know, you get a glass slipper and it's happily ever after. Relationships are work. Sometimes they don't work out, and that's okay, too. There's all kinds of things you're co-mingling with another human. And things can get complicated even in the best situations. If you are buying into the fairy tale and the reader is feeding that fairy tale, we're going to have some problems, Houston.
JK: You talk a lot about ethical responsibility, as someone who works in this industry. I wonder how all of the work you’ve done as a practitioner translates into how you write about tarot? Obviously, when you’re reading for someone face-to-face, you can specifically address all of their concerns and all of the nuances of their situation. But when you're writing about it, you have the reader in mind, but obviously there are many, many people who are going to pick this up. So how do you translate those things differently?
TR: First of all, I've got a Libra rising, so ethics are important to me. However, ethics are squishy. They're very, very squishy, because what one person considers ethical, another person might not. So we do have to keep that in our back, in the back of our minds.
For example, a lot of people say, well, I will never read for a third party who's not present. And I'm like, well, if I'm a 90-year-old granny who's in here who wants to know all about her grandkids and if they're going to be okay, I'm not going to tell her no. Sorry. I'm going to be careful how I word it. There are going to be things that are none of her business. But I will make sure that at least she walks away feeling that she got some information to help her be a better grandmother. And that's how you have to look at the perspective from things like that.
But with ethics. One of the problems when people start learning tarot is nobody teaches you how to deal with some really dicey situations which will show up at your tarot table — or your astrology table for that matter. You don't learn how to talk someone off a ledge. It just shows up in your office one day and it's like, oh my God. This person is thinking about doing something drastic.
JK: Yeah.
TR: No one teaches you what to do when a client crosses a boundary, like maybe a physical boundary with you. A lot of this requires ethics and grounding and integrity and courage. I'm always hoping that I can put that information out there.
So [practitioners], first of all, deliver readings that don't cause harm. Sometimes, unintentionally, we cause harm with our words. We don't realize we're doing it. We say something, we think we're being kind and it's like, oh God, no, why did I say that?
But also. I want the reader to not only deliver readings that don't cause harm, but not to be in situations that cause them harm, either. Because let me tell you, I've been in some situations that I was never prepared for, and how I wish I would have had a wise elder to guide me back then. I would have been much safer and a lot less traumatized by some of the work I had to deal with.
I hate to tell people this. If you are a tarot reader professionally, you're going to end up with some trauma. That's a hard thing for people to hear.
JK: But that's also very real. When you're a counseling tarot reader, when you're a counseling astrologer, you are on the receiving end of — it's not therapy. But the service is therapeutic. And especially when psychic stuff comes into play, there's just a lot of information we end up on the receiving end of, and a lot of energy we end up on the receiving end of that also requires a lot of cleanup and a lot of spiritual hygiene and a lot of boundaries.
You’re one of the people who's taught me the most about how to manage that. You and Mecca [Woods, an astrologer].
TR: We also have to manage those boundaries, not just for our own peace of mind, but we are setting the tone for people. You mentioned being on the receiving end of energy: we're also on the receiving end of a lot of abuse. Tarot readers and astrologers are not the only ones who get this. If you’re a creative online, there’s always going to be someone who wants to attack somebody. People get into that. It’s really weird.
JK: I feel very lucky with my clientele a lot of the time, just because of the specificity of the work that I do. It keeps a lot of problematic folks out. But things still happen.
TR: Things still happen. But back in the day, we didn't have the knowledge. I think a lot of younger readers are much smarter about boundaries than we were. We thought we had to serve everybody. No, we don’t. I'm not for everybody. I had to learn that the hard way. And not everybody's for me.
JK: And also, I've never done readings — well, that's not true, I used to do tarot readings in person — but astrology readings, I've never done in person. I've always done them online. So also, what you’ve talked about with the physical intimacy of sharing space with people and what can come up when things happen in that kind of space is a [different kind of] safety issue in a way that it is not when I have a computer where I can click out of a Zoom room.
TR: When you have someone in your office doing something threatening, it's a whole different ball game.
So one of the things I will say, is being able to transition into writing has just made me feel so much more relaxed and safe and calm, because I'm not worried about someone popping off. I'm not worried about somebody getting mean because they don't like what I say anymore. I don't want to deal with any of that anymore. And that's a really, really great feeling. As I get older, I don't need the headache.
JK: No one does, and especially not you.
So, with having transitioned more into the writing, what does your writing routine look like these days? Does it change book to book? Or does it stay a little more consistent? Your output is just so prolific.
TR: I've got three planets in Virgo. I'm highly disciplined. You wouldn't be able to tell by the looks of my office; I'm still that little messy girl who got my desk dumped out in third grade by a very mean teacher. But I'm highly, highly disciplined and organized.
I have a calendar system that I work on. When I'm not writing a book, I have my regular duties. Blogging, Patreon, the newsletter. So I have everything always metered out, so to speak. When it's time to write a book, what happens is I have to figure out my deadline. As soon as I have the deadline from my publisher, I have to figure out my word count. Then I reverse engineer everything and do a whole lot of math, because I'm a math geek. So I'll have a word count for my rough draft. I do that religiously every day. I'll even work on the weekends to get that word count.
JK: Oh, damn.
TR: Once the rough draft is out — which is the hardest part for me, I hate the rough draft process. The whole time I'm saying, what have I gotten myself into? I just wanted that advance and I wanted to not do anything! It’s like pulling teeth. I hate it so much — but once it's done, I'll take a week off. Then I hit it hard. I'll usually do a couple of drafts, but the next couple drafts go really fast.
Once I get a draft I like, I take it over to my private editor, who's my daughter. By the way, she is she is for hire! She's very good at working with metaphysical people. She is the best editor. She is a grammar freak and a comma freak.
I wish every single author would have a private editor and a sensitivity reader.
JK: Mmm hmmm.
TR: Hire people who have those skills, because sometimes you're going to put something in there where you think you're being cool. No, you're not being cool. You're inappropriate. You need to sometimes learn and remember, I'm also old. So having someone who's a young millennial look and say, you know, you can't use that word.
JK: But also, you know enough to actually hire a sensitivity reader. And that’s the thing. It’s important to hire sensitivity readers — often for different aspects of the work — so you can have that perspective on the work.
But yeah. Everyone works so differently and has a different process, and I love hearing what their process is.
TR: For me, it has to be regimented. You wouldn't know by this office how disciplined I am.
JK: I don’t know what you’re talking about. There are things literally in orderly rows behind you. Everything is very orderly looking! But I can appreciate that the Virgo-ness is like, it’s a pigsty when to other people it is very, very clean.
TR: But Jeanna, if you saw the stacks of decks and books here. I always say it looks like a library and a church threw up on my house. That's what it looks like here. But it's a mess I understand.
JK: I did want to ask: you're one of the most successful authors I know who works without an agent, and I wondered if you might speak to what that process is like on the business end? I know a lot of readers would love to hear about that.
TR: A lot of folks I know have agents or are in the process of getting agents, and I completely respect that, because it can be helpful to have somebody look over your contract to make inroads for you. So I'm all about that. But for me, the thing is I'm extremely independent. I don't even like being married, even though I keep getting married.
JK: And let’s just say, for people who don't know, how long have the two of you been married?
TR: Terry and I have been together now for 30 some years. I don't even remember.
JK: Just for context.
TR: And also just for context, I have a weird little track record. I had a lot of fun before I settled down with Mr. Tarot Lady.
The reason why it works with Mr. Tarot Lady is because he respects my independence, and he's off my ass. Previous partners were not like that. They were on me constantly. It's like, get off my back. Let me breathe.
So I'm extremely, extremely independent, and I don't do well with sharing my money. So let's be real frank. I don't like sharing my money. I am not one of those people. If you want to go to the astrology, I’ve got a moon in the second house and I've got a loaded eighth house. In my past life, I was a money manager. I like managing money. I'm very good at managing money. So I don't want to share. I've toyed around with the idea of agents, but I don’t want to pay anybody.
But the thing is, when you don't have an agent, you don't have anyone looking out for you. And that's where a lot of authors can get into situations with bad contracts or not good relationships with their publishers. You have nobody going between you, so you're really putting yourself in a pretty risky situation.
So first of all, I think [having] an agent is wise for a lot of people, and I think a lot of folks should have an agent.
Now for me, I understand law. Many years ago I thought I wanted to be a pro-labor, anti-corporation lawyer. I toyed with that idea for a while, but then I thought, I don't want to go to school that much. I want to go get laid. Forget this. *both cackling* I had other priorities. But I'm still really, really interested in legal things. So for me, because I also still study law, I can look over a contract, I can understand a contract, I know what questions to ask.
The way it works for me with publishers – first of all, I've been lucky. Most of the time, publishers have approached me. So that also is something that changes the game, if they approach you. On the times when it hasn't been, I've come up with an idea, created a proposal, sent it in, and then we go from there and then we negotiate. And so if you do not have an agent, you have to know how to put together a proposal. You have to research who to send it to. You also gotta be good at taking rejection, because you're probably going to get rejected. I've been rejected. It's okay. Rejection is not a big thing. It's okay. It happens.
JK: It's so normal. Even with agents. It's so normal.
TR: Exactly. People get worked up over them, like whatever. There’s always another one.
And then, you’ve got to understand the contract. You’ve got to understand things like the right of first refusal. You have to understand things like, what is an accelerator? You have to understand what your percentage is going to be. What it means to get an advance. So you do need to know something about it.
I've been very lucky. My publishers have been lovely. Other people I know have not been lucky.
I really think agents are good for most people. If you're not going to have an agent, you've got to be able to understand the law. You've got to be able to advocate for yourself. You've got to have some brass ovaries.
JK: I think regardless of which situation folks end up being in, it's really smart to research how to understand publishing contracts anyway, just so you're also not entirely reliant on an agent or on an organization like the Authors Guild, which you can hire to look over your contract. Just so you understand what all of this stuff is.
I also got really nerdy [when selling my first book] and went deep into the realm of publishing contracts just because it's really fucking interesting.
TR: It’s fascinating.
The other thing that a lot of people don't understand, when you work with a traditional publisher, [is] they just assume the publisher's going to take care of everything for you. No, they're not. They're going to take care of a lot of stuff. But a lot of that marketing — what you don't realize [is] that's on you.
Everybody should learn the very basics about the publishing industry, publishing contracts, how to put together a good proposal — even if your agent is going to do it for you. And you should also learn about how to market your book. You have to learn these things. Again, an agent is a brilliant thing because they will help you with all of that. That really is like having the middleman.
So I am not anti-agent, I'm just anti-agent for me. Listen, this is why I have to be self-employed. I can't work for somebody. I'm a lousy employee. I want to do it all myself! Many years ago, when I was a kid, my father said, you should be a secretary. And I was like, I'm CEO material. I am not a secretary. Not that there's anything wrong with that, you know. But I've never been good at working with or for somebody.
JK: I'm very estranged from my parents at this point, but I really relate a lot to my dad in this. My dad, who is now retired, said for the entirety of my life that the only reason he remained gainfully employed was because the nature of his work was very solitary. He worked for a telecom company — well, he worked for many telecom companies over the years — but he was always independent, and just like the one guy going out into the field doing something. He was never in an office. He never had his boss looking over his shoulder. He maybe saw his managers once a quarter. That was the kind of setup he had.
The older and older I've gotten, I've realized that's obviously how I am, because I am now self-employed and cannot work in an office.
TR: No. It's not for everybody.
It’s interesting with my parents, they're old farm folks. But I grew up in a household of extroverts. Everybody in my household was extroverted except me, and I just wanted to crawl into the room and have a lock on the door so I could read all the books. That was also a sign that, listen, you're not meant to have a regular career! You need to have something where you can be surrounded by all the books and maybe a couple of plants and just not have to deal with humans unless it's safe for you. That's better for me.
When I started really working on my tarot career, my father thought it was the weirdest thing ever, but it was social, so he got that. Now he's been gone for a long time. I think he'd be tickled pink at my career as an author, but he wouldn't understand it because that being alone business was just something my dad couldn't understand.
JK: How was it growing up as the only introvert in a house full of social, social beings?
TR: My family's very loud. When you get together with my sister and my brother, it is so loud. It was very hard for me because I'm quieter. I don't like being outside. I liked being in the library while they were out running around running wild. My mother and my aunt would be like, why don't you go outside and play? Why don't you be like the other kids? I don't want to be like them. I don't feel like a kid.
From the time I was a very little girl, my mission was to get the hell out of there. No offense parents, you're long gone, but I just wanted to get out. I did not fit in with these people. I was an alien amongst my kin. Which makes sense, also, because I have Aquarius on my IC. I'm a total alien with them.
JK: Did that inform the different pursuit of spirituality vis a vis how you grew up?
TR: Oh, now we’re going to talk about spirituality.
JK: Well that's usually where I start, how spirituality relates to creativity. But we just started in a different place.
TR: Spirituality is so, so tied into my creativity. But it's interesting because even though my family were like farm folks, my mother was psychic, my grandmother was psychic, my other grandmother was superstitious and really religious, burning candles of this saint and that saint. So it really was the perfect cocktail for me to go the direction I did.
However, my parents were also very religious Catholics. There were a few little incidents that really shaped my beliefs early on. The first: I broke my leg when I was two years old, and I was stuck in the hospital in traction for weeks, because that's the way they were back in the day. My parents had to leave me there. I remember coming home after six weeks. I came home, and I could read books then, because I had nothing to do [in the hospital] except read and watch Sesame Street. I came home and I was like, wow. I knew right then: this was not my family. I don't belong here. I felt completely cut off from them emotionally. I just knew I was different.
Growing up in that household, I knew I was different. Growing up in that farming community, I knew I was different. And when I was about four years old, we went to church. I was very precocious, too. I was sitting real quiet on the pew, just listening to everyone do the prayers. And I thought in the back of my head — it sounds so ridiculous when I say it out loud! — I thought, they sound like robots. I don't want to be a robot. And so I went home and I said, I'm not going to church anymore. I was marching around saying, we're not going to church. And so my siblings were following me and saying, we're not going to church! Well, needless to say, I got in big trouble. I got in big trouble for that, for leading the church rebellion. And then I said, okay, fine, I'm going to go along with this church thing. But in the back of my head, this is me at four years old.
JK: Four! That’s so young!
TR: So at four years old, I thought: when I'm 18 — because I was cognizant enough to know that when you were a teenager, you could do what you wanted — I'm never going to church again. I made that vow, and I made that vow happen.
So when I look back at little Theresa and my spirituality, there's a theme there. It's individuality. It's rebellion. I don't want to conform. I don't want to do what anyone else is doing. I don't want to be a robot.
So my path towards spirituality, towards tarot, happened when I was 15. I had a fellow friend in high school who was a misfit like me; we were both weird. She said her mom did astrology. I was like, oh, I've seen that in the newspaper. Her mom did my astrology chart, and it blew my mind. I'm like, this makes more sense than what these parents are telling me. That’s how I got into astrology.
Astrology led to tarot shortly after, because I was at the mall, and I was looking for an astrology book, and I saw tarot deck. I'm like, I saw that in the movies. Boom! Took it home and that was it. I was obsessed with tarot and astrology from the time I was 15, and I knew that that was going to be my thing early on. I didn't know it was going to be a career, but I knew it was going to be my thing.
So my spirituality — if somebody asked me how to describe myself, I would say I'm definitely agnostic. I'm almost one step away from going over the edge of that. But I also say I'm agnostic because I think, well, I'm open minded, because you just never know. So I'm nice to all the gods, just in case. I like things that are very witchy. I don't consider myself a pagan. I consider myself kind of nothing. I just like what I like.
A friend of mine said, well, you're just a magician, that's all. And I'm like, well, that's fine too, you know? I don't have any deep attachment to a god or a saint or this or that. I don't subscribe to one thing. I don't belong to a coven. I'm just a lone wolf kind of doing my magical stuff. I'm not going to be a robot.
JK: No, but you are also simultaneously one of the most magical people I know. So, also that.
TR: Thank you. My husband used to say to me, you're all so lucky. I said, I'm not lucky. I just kind of know everything's always going to work out for me. And it always does. That's the magic. Having faith.
JK: Having faith, and I think also, too, a large part of what you're talking about is knowing yourself and living in integrity and making choices that are in integrity with you, with your environment, with your relationships. And when you're doing that, a lot of really potent stuff just kind of happens.
TR: We live in a world that tries to make us all be a certain thing that has rules for how you're supposed to be. How you're supposed to act. What roles you can do as a man, a woman, this or that. We have all these rules, and I just think those rules are bullshit. Utter bullshit.
You know, it's really funny with my kids. I raised them so differently than [how] my parents raised us. They got no religion. My parents were horrified, and I said, they're going to have to come to it if they want to. It’s the same with their schooling. They're like, well, what should I become? I said, I don't care. Just figure out what you like. Who cares? And so of course they picked creative careers. Some people said, that's not very practical. What about something to fall back on? I said, who cares? You'll figure it out. Who cares? Do what you want. March to the beat of your own drum. There are no rules. Just don't be an ass.
JK: I think that's a really beautiful note to end on. Just don't be an ass! *both laughing* Because that’s kind of it? That’s the whole thing!
If you enjoyed this interview, I encourage you to follow Theresa on all the things, especially Instagram, where you can catch her Lives on Monday and Friday mornings. And she is also here on Substack at
.Also! Metaphysical writers! Reach out to Theresa at hello@thetarotlady.com to be put in touch with her daughter for editing services.
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This was SUCH a great interview!
Love this interview!