on sacred collaboration and sacred gender: cassandra snow & siri plouff in conversation with jeanna kadlec

our first ever co-writers to join the series!

A reminder to sign up for my two upcoming classes: Writing the Hybrid Memoir is this Sunday, June 11th, and Tell It Slant: Uncovering the Truth in Memoir is Sunday, June 18th.

---

When I think about who has consistently been doing radically inclusive work in the queer witchcraft space — like, really, truly radically inclusive work — I think of Siri Plouff and Cassandra Snow. 

Siri (L) & Cassandra (R)

I’ve been devouring the work of vaunted tarot reader and teacher Cassandra Snow since I was a baby queer with a new tarot deck in my hands, gobbling up every word of their Queering the Tarot column on Beth Maiden’s Little Red Tarot. That column became a book, Queering the Tarot, which was only the first of Snow’s books: there was Queering Your Craft, and now, with Siri, their third.

Siri Plouff and I go back further: we met in middle school. We did school plays together; we were drum majors in marching band together; we talked about religion and god and spirit even in the days when they were still Wiccan and I was a conservative evangelical. Through the strange and most wonderful curiosities of life, we have found ourselves in continued spiritual community. Which is to say, this one was extra special.

You can find many of Siri’s most accessible teachings and conversations at the Heathen’s Journey podcast, which I highly recommend, and of course personally seek out their readings and teachings with runes, tarot, and witchcraft. She is also a very vocal advocate of antiracist heathenry within Norse paganism. Lessons from the Empress, with Cassandra, is their first book.

This is the first set of co-authors I’ve ever interviewed for the Author Series, and to have it be Cassandra and Siri for Pride Month just felt extra special. We talked about collaboration, co-writing, witchcraft, sacred gender, and so much more, and even though this conversation actually happened a while ago, it feels perfect for this moment. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

This conversation sure has been edited for length

---

Jeanna Kadlec: So Siri and Cassandra, I'm so excited to be talking with you all today. If you could introduce yourselves to astrology for writers readers who may not be familiar with your work? I’ve also never interviewed co-authors before, so this is very exciting.

Siri Plouff: I'm Siri. I go by she/they pronouns. I am a writer and podcaster living on Anishinaabe and Dakota territory in Minneapolis, Minnesota. My work focuses around spiritual, mystical and divinatory practices at the moment. I am the host of the Heathens Journey Podcast, which is a podcast that is all about Norse paganism and heathenry, and I go into contemporary Nordic folk magic and stuff like that. 

Jeanna and I are old friends. It's been really great to see astrology for writers and Jeanna, especially, grow over the years. 

Cassandra Snow: I am Cassandra Snow, they/them pronouns. I am a three-time Weiser author, including co-authoring Lessons from the Empress with Siri. I am a professional tarot reader and teacher by trade as well as a theater maker, and [I] recently entered TTRPG [table-top role playing game] podcast-making space. 

Siri and I literally live in a duplex. *both laughing*

SP: It made the writing process easier. There was a lot of writing that happened in person.

JK: I love that you don't live in the same apartment, but you are next door neighbors. And in this sense of co-writing being quite literal: not just writing as a creative fifth house experience, but also as a very writing routine in my local neighborhood third house experience. 

I would be so interested to look at y'all's charts and see how those transits lined up. What are each of your big three?

CS: I am a Pisces with a Pisces moon and a Cancer rising. I also have really strong influences from my Mars and Venus, which are both in Aries. 

SP: I am a Cancer with a Virgo rising and a Scorpio moon, because I'm blessed.

JK: I love a Scorpio moon. 

I also love, especially since y'all are the first co-writers of a book that I’ve done for this author interview series, I love that you have this beautiful first house/seventh house axis happening [with Cassandra’s Pisces sun/moon being in Siri’s seventh house, as a Virgo Rising, and Siri’s Cancer sun also being in Cassandra’s first house as a Cancer Rising], because I do put co-writers and creative collaborators in the seventh. I think it's really sweet to see the beautiful synastry that y’all have, and how that might show up astrologically for folks who are considering co-writing.

But to get into the meat of the conversation! Just to kick us off, I want to ask both of you what spirituality is to each of you respectively in this moment.

CS: It's always hard for me to answer. I have really built spirituality into everything that I do. I'm always aware of it, but then, we're not built for that constant awareness. So it also can just run in the background a lot of the time, which is really nice. 

I am pagan, both in terms of being polytheistic as well as nature animist. I love a good solid witchcraft ritual, and I also love just drinking my coffee and doing my morning pages and getting on with my day. So it really runs the gamut. 

I am pretty solo. I know that you understand this, but I'm super immunocompromised, and so getting out and doing public things right now is not really an option for me. I was a solo practitioner before, and now I'm really a solo practitioner. 

SP: I have actually been going through a spiritual crisis of sorts over the last seven-ish months. I took a really extended break from providing services and teaching and all of that over the winter. And so I'm coming back to myself and being like, okay, what is this now? Because I do have more hope now. 

I would say that I am a lifelong witch. I was initiated into a Wiccan coven as a teenager. It’s interesting, because I’ve been in a coven, and then very solitary, and then learning from teachers. I have a history in my öorlog, which is a Nordic term for essentially repeating patterns and what other people might refer to as karma, of having bad teachers. That precipitated the crisis of faith, or added to it. 

I go back and forth between group work and being a completely solo practitioner. I would say if somebody else were to describe my spiritual practice: It is generally Norse pagan or heathen, with some very important and strong animist tendencies, as well as a bit of a flair for the dramatic. I do like a good ritual where I actually cast a circle and call in the elements.

CS: I feel like Siri and I both like the drama of the ritual, but our day to day is a lot quieter than that. 

JK: I love the way both of you approach that question. When I think of people around our age — there are not many people in the occult space who are seasoned. And both of you are so seasoned and have so many years and decades of experience underneath you. And your answers are just so short and so succinct. 

And not that they have to be long, but you're like, oh, this is what I do, and that’s that, and people reading it may not understand that you each have literal decades of witchcraft and practice, not to mention writing, under your belt as a part of that, and so I do just want to explicitly point that out.

CS: Thank you. Also, spicy statement, but I feel like the people who are the loudest about how strong their witchcraft is or whatever else are — *pauses*. That's just not who I would go to if I needed something.

JK: The proof is in the pudding, as it were.

SP: So there's this thing in Norse heathenry called seidr practice, which essentially involves a völva or a staff-carrying woman or a person who is a seer to sit in a circle. In the old texts, the warding songs are sung to this person, and then they are able to just see out. You can actually do this ritual. My current spiritual mentor Kari has done this ritual. I'm semi in training to do this ritual. 

But [Kari] was doing it with somebody who has prestige in the community who after the ritual was like, Oh my God, I need chocolate, I need meat, I need cheese. I'm so exhausted. And she was like, Kari, do you need anything? And Kari was like, No, I'm good. Because if you know how to ground, you don't need to do that. She didn’t say that in so many words, that's my spicy Scorpio moon take on it, but essentially, I think that it really goes to show that a lot of people who are there primarily for the dramatics and also primarily for ego purposes will come up with all of these ways of attempting to prove their power that just don't make any sense. Like, oh I put out so much power that now I need to recharge with like a full hog’s leg or something and cakes and ale and wine. [But] if you're just getting done what needs done, you don't really need that. That is one of my frustrations with the way the witchcraft space has moved. 

CS: I work with some goddesses that specifically do like that stuff, although I never do alcohol because I'm in sobriety, and it's just recognized that that is not something I should keep in the house. 

But so much of spirituality is just about relationship building to me. I liken it to, if you only make dinner for your partner when you want something or it's their birthday, that's gonna feel a little suspicious after a while! So sometimes they get honey cakes because, hey, it's Tuesday and I had time, and sometimes they don't get them on big rituals because I need to be focused on internal power. 

SP: I think that it's important to provide offerings for sure. That is a very different practice than, I have drained my energy fully in ritual and need to ingest all of this material to build myself back up. Those are two very different things. I think that keeping it focused on the offering is actually really beautiful. 

JK: What you're saying, Siri, reminds me of singers with big voices who go on stage and don't need to warm up and can just belt because they’re well trained. If your voice is well trained, you can just open your throat and sing. And obviously the care and keeping of a professional's voice — they're not smoking, they're not necessarily going to be drinking on the day of a concert when they're doing a big performance. There’s the routine and the rigorous upkeep, but they don't need to do some dramatic vocal warm up because they can just go on. 

I wanted to ask, though, about y'all's relationship and also both of your writing practices. But just to start with your friendship, I wanted to ask how how the two of you met, but also how you built the kind of relationship and creative trust that said, this isn't only someone who I'm going to kick the can around with and be like, Oh, maybe we'll write a book someday. But you actually decided to write a book together and have a contract together and actually wrote a fucking book together. What was that journey like?

CS: I love that you actually asked about the friendship aspect, because I don't think anyone has. Siri was responding to a lot of stuff online about my Little Red Tarot column in a positive way. Honestly, I just realized they were in Minneapolis, and I was like, Hey, would you want to get coffee and hang out? And so we did. 

I do think a lot of close friendship end up being right place, right time. Yes, sometimes people are crappy, sometimes you just don't click. But Siri is a really good friend, and I had a lot of really horrible friendships up until the time I was about 30. I think if we would have met sooner, I would have been like, that person's too nice. I don't buy it. I think I would have been like, that person seems too into this friendship. That's weird. Because Siri did respond really positively to wanting to be friends. 

We just had so much in common. It grew from there. And then Siri lived with me for a while because they had a day job bouncing between locations. 

SP: I had a day job that asked me to move to Duluth, Minnesota by January, and then said that I needed to stay in Minneapolis to help with the legislative session for an extra two months. So I had a lease and everything all planned out, and somebody had already taken my spot in my current living situation. So I was just like, Okay. I know Cassandra has an extra room. 

CS: So they moved, lived their life, got married. Manny [Cassandra’s queer platonic partner] and I had an apartment that we really loved in the beginning. But as time went on, the building got louder, and as people moved out, the people that moved in were horrible to be in a building with. It changed management and they completely stopped responding to things.

And so Siri was like, the unit below us opened up. Do you all want that? It was cheaper. Manny and I are trying to buy a house, and it allows us to save for that a bit better. Growing up, I was obsessed with the TV show Friends, and I feel like I'm living it. This has been everything I wanted. We’re also friends with people on the first floor. It’s fantastic. 

SP: Cassandra was already a seasoned tarot reader, professionally, and a freelance writer in tarot when we became friends, and I recognized that as something that I aspired to and wanted to move toward. My career was growing; their career was growing. We've actually taught a lot of classes together, whether they're tarot workshops or doing events together. We vended doing readings at the same things really early on in our friendship.

So when the pandemic hit, I had to pivot — we all had to pivot — business in a really major way. And I did a Self Care in Weird Times class with another mutual friend of ours in 2020, and then in 2021 I asked Cassandra, would you be interested in doing something with me around tarot and probably creativity? It ended up being a six week long class called Creating in Weird Times.

JK: I remember that.

SP: We were writing our workbooks, and because we are both the people that we are, our workbooks for each night of the class were 20 pages long.

CS: Or more.

SP: We were cutting shit out, because we were like, This is probably not reasonable. 

CS: We're also both generous people, and so we wanted to be generous with our knowledge, but we also recognized it was too much. 

SP: That’s not what you expect when you're taking a chill class, right? Wrong. You should never expect a chill class from either of us.

JK: That is correct. It's going to be a great and intense class. 

SP: So I was feeling a little naive, and I had never published professionally yet. And I was just like, Hey, do you want to release this as a zine on our website? Because this is a lot of material. And Cassandra was like, No, I want to do it as a book because nobody will read a 100 page zine. 

CS: That's not a zine at that point! Siri, this isn’t a zine!

SP: Cassandra had a couple of books under their belt and had a really good relationship with Kathryn at Weiser. So we just pitched it as a book and they were like, great, let's do it. And so it happened really organically.

I think that the best co-authorships happen organically, because people are interested in the same thing. Maybe you’re writing about the same thing or are in a writer’s group or just in a friendship meeting up over coffee or Zoom, and you figure out that, oh, not only is our work around much of the same theme, but it brings out something incredible in the other person's work.

We have very different styles. We wrote ourselves into each other's styles in the book in a way that ended up working really well. But when we were in writers’ group together, we both sent pages for review, and Cassandra sent something in the [suit of] Cups and I sent something in the [suit of] Swords, and I think Asali from Asali Earthwork was like, it is very evident that Siri wrote the Swords and that Cassandra wrote the Cups. I think that that ended up balancing out really well in the book because we do have different perspectives toward a similar goal. 

We [also] did a really cute thing during the writing process. 

CS: Cute, terrifying, whatever. 

SP: My parents have this beautiful farm in rural Wisconsin. We're talking rolling hills. We're talking the nearest town is a town of 400. And my parents are both incredibly supportive. So they offered to host us for a writers retreat. My mom was like, I'll cook for you the entire weekend so you don't have to worry about anything! And my dad, Papa Plouff, was around and just being very encouraging in a very dad-ly way. 

But as we were going there, I was like, okay, so how are we going to structure our time? And we decided to read the book to each other.

JK: Chaos. But I love it.

CS: It was the most cringey thing I've ever done, and I am like, an embrace the cringe person! We read each other's sections, and every time Siri read something of mine, I was like, Why are you friends with them, Siri? 

SP: But that really helped, because when I heard my sections in Cassandra's voice, I could be like, Oh, I should make this sentence more fluid. A difference in our writing styles is that I use brevity to make points. Cassandra uses fluidity to do the same thing.

CS: Siri’s being kind. I love a good run-on sentence.

JK: Speaking my language. 

CS: And Siri would read something, and I would think it sounded regular. Then Siri was like, You hear how that needs to be four sentences, right? And I was like, I do not. But I will change it. 

You've been sitting here with us for an hour. That’s literally how I talk. So to me, I'm writing in my voice, but it doesn't always translate to page.

JK: That reminds me, a friend recently recommended a book to me by saying, Jeanna, there's a whole page that's just a sentence. And I was like —

CS: WHAT BOOK IS IT.

JK: EXACTLY. I forget the title. But I was like, Oh, done, Sold. There are entire pages that are just sentences? 

CS: Yes. One hundred percent. 

JK: On a craft level alone, you have sold me.

SP: Don't you hate James Joyce?

JK: That's irrelevant, Siri! Irrelevant!

CS: We don’t have to like every writer that does that.

JK: But yes, I never met a run-on sentence that I didn't like. Aside from James Joyce.

SP: Aside from that one chapter in Ulysses, because it was like a full sentence chapter.

SP: So this is Cassandra's style, whereas I am a fan of the single sentence paragraph. And that sentence can be short. 

CS: Siri is forgetting their other writing quirk, which is that when they tried to write in a more fluid way, they just threw in commas that didn't make any sense.

SP: I did not throw in commas, excuse you! *everyone laughing* I placed commas where, if I were reading the text aloud, I would pause. Which is dramatic as fuck. And also, how you get a fan of the one sentence paragraph to write long sentences!

JK: You do have to punctuate accordingly.

CS: I also don't think that was always true, because there were definitely times where it was like ten words and four commas, and I was like, Siri, you do not pause this much when you talk.

SP: You are exaggerating. What's your next question, Jeanna?

JK: No, I love this. I appreciate y'all's transparency, we'll call it. *everyone laughing* 

When you're writing alone, you don't have the mirror to hold up all of your writing tics to you until your editor sends stuff back to you. When you're writing with someone else, it's like, how do you preserve your voice? But also, you have someone else being like, we have to bridge our styles to an extent. So as not to really highlight to the reader that they have to be toggling their brain back and forth between modernism and romantic poetry. 

SP: That’s the breakdown.

CS: That’s it. One hundred percent.

JK: Those are two really different reading styles! And they're both amazing when they are discrete, but there does have to be some kind of bridging that still preserves [your individual voices]. And it’s a very unique challenge, we'll call it, to have when co-writing. 

I did want to ask y’all how the experience of co-writing was different from the experience of writing individually, and how you found that personally for you.

CS: Because I did have a couple books under my belt, in some ways it felt easier, because I was like, I only have to write half a book! But there were definitely times where we didn't see eye to eye. We definitely had moments where separate research led us to separate conclusions, and we had to work through that. 

JK: That’s so interesting. That's not something that I think someone would necessarily realize if they weren’t talking to one of you.

SP: I think too, it was what our influences were outside of our project at the time that we were working on [it]. 

I read both tarot and runes, which is probably apparent to most people who have even perused my Instagram feed. I almost exclusively pulled runes in my daily readings during the process of writing a tarot book. That was really interesting and influential and weird, and sometimes I felt uncomfortable about it, but it just felt right. 

I'm really used to group writing, actually, because when I was in grad school [for] public policy, it's all five authors to a brief.

CS: I'm used to collaboration in general because my other background is in theater. There are very dictatorial producers and directors. I was not one [with my theater company]. Manny was not one. We usually started off a rehearsal process by being like, so what does everyone else think this play is? And a fun question that we like to ask is, what is something you've always wanted to do on stage but have never gotten to? We'll see if we can work that in. And sometimes we couldn't. Sometimes people were like, I want to mimic riding a horse in a play about the ocean. But often, we could!

So I think we were just both so used to collaborating, and then Manny and I have written scripts together.

SP: Policy briefs are interesting too, because this is probably where my [use] of really brief sentences and strict language came [from]. I think that writing this book broke me of that, because in working on projects since then, my style has shifted in a very good way. 

But in policy briefs, it is five people to a brief. A brief is three pages long at most, and every sentence is cited. 

JK: Highly technical, highly organized, every word counts.

SP: I was used to fighting with people about the thesis. I was used to fighting with people over the process of research and the conclusion they were coming to and the conclusion I was coming to and coming to a head around that. 

I swear grad school is designed to make your brain change, but not retain anything. I would be assigned one of these briefs, and I wouldn't know who I was working with until a week before it was due. Then you just have to scramble, and everybody has to work. 

So that's my experience with writing in a group previous to this. This was much more fun. This was much more graceful. I think that some of the ways that I can see my writing has changed is that my writing is more fluid now. I think that my writing has definitely been improved through the process of working with Cassandra.

CS: Mine has too. Working with Siri [has helped me] ask the question, what is the easiest way to say this? Because I think Siri is really good at that. 

JK: I so appreciate that y’all talked about what you learned from each other. That's really beautiful.

Do you have — and this might be a little unfair of a question — but do either of you do both of you have a favorite or multiple favorite Empress cards from specific decks?

SP: Ooh.

CS: No one has asked us that yet! I'm so excited!

In the book, we do talk about Kindred in the Slow Holler, which is one of my favorites. [NOTE from Jeanna: the Slow Holler is out print.]

“Kindred,” the Empress card from the Slow Holler Tarot

JK: Can I ask what you love about that card?

CS: I love that it sort of de-maternalizes [The Empress]. The illustration is just a bunch of animals on a farm, in community together. I think it really emphasizes that community connection is an important part of creation. So I really love that one. 

Also, I'm fat. I really love any fat empress. 

SP: Yeah.

CS: Any fat empress who isn't pregnant is high on my list.

SP: During the writing process, and even now I'm realizing — I still have a book altar — I had the Empress card from the Next World Tarot on the Empress altar. I didn't have a copy of the Fifth Spirit Tarot until it came out in Mass Market Edition, but the Empress and Emperor cards? 

The Empress from the Fifth Spirit Tarot

CS: Gorgeous.

SP: Fucking incredible. 

Both the Empress and the Emperor cards are visibly trans, so the Empress is very visibly a trans woman. The Emperor is very visibly a trans man who has not top surgery. He’s got a beard and his boobs are hanging out, and I love it so much. Very non-binary takes on the cards.

The Emperor from the Fifth Spirit Tarot

This book really got me thinking a lot about sacred gender, because we don't refer to the Empress as “she” throughout the book. That was a very purposeful choice that we made as two non-binary authors to try to break out of that idea of the Empress being on one side of a boundary.

But it also got me thinking, what if the Empress was a man? What if the Empress was a woman? And I also had moments while writing this book as a nonbinary person where I was like, Oh my God, WOMEN. Women are incredible! And also, like, men are incredible and, you know, thinking through all of that. So that is my love letter to the Fifth Spirit Tarot and particularly to Charlie Claire Burgess’s depictions of both the Empress and the Emperor.

JK: Did writing a book about the Empress impact your relationship to creativity? And how is it impacting that moving forward as you work on your next projects?

CS: What we really wanted for readers was for it to be really generative and really expansive. I think the super straightforward answer is that, well, I co-wrote a whole book that if I get stuck, I can pull out and find some inspiration, because that was the point of it.

The more romantic answer, is that for all we’ve talked about my emotions and love of a run on sentence and everything else, I've been a working creative my whole life. I'm very, very blessed for that. 

But I think I was getting really bogged down in process. This allowed me to get back to creating for creating’s sake and reminded me that this is supposed to feel good. It's not supposed to just be what I do. The point of me doing what I do, even when I live in poverty, is that it's supposed to feel good. It really pushed me back to that. I think that's a lesson of the Empress in general, is that the things you spend most of your time doing are supposed to feel good. But definitely where creativity is concerned.

SP: So this was my first book, right? So there's that whole thing of, oh my God, I love this! I can't wait to write more books. 

During the writing process, and while we were teaching the course, I was focused a lot on fiction. I was starting to map the novel that I'm writing onto a tool called The Plot Embryo. I was starting to really dive into certain character aspects, and now it's so many years later, and I finally started chapter one of this novel. I’m so proud of myself for actually doing that. 

This book really gave me permission to say, once and for all, yes, I just want to be paid to write. That’s what I want to do. And if I am not initially paid to write, or I can't live off of royalties yet, I am completely willing to get a day job that will sustain me in order to write. That's been a big journey for me, going from working my own small business and running into the ground in a lot of ways, to realizing I need a day job. I need to work on some of my really spicy workplace trauma to get to that point of abundance. 

I think the Empress really taught me that abundance is possible, and it doesn’t have to be fraught.

CS: I think for both of us, too, it reminded us that abundance means many things. We had a triplex meeting about the garden the other night, and I was like, that will hopefully be an abundant project. But that doesn’t necessarily mean writing.

SP: You worked with plants a lot during the writing of Lessons from the Empress and have continued to.

CS: We were at a point in the pandemic where it was either, get a dog, which my cats would riot, or become a plant person. So I chose the latter.

JK: I love that.

My final question for you all, and this has been so wonderful and you've both been so generous, but it is: what next projects are y'all working on? 

CS: I was commissioned to write some chapters of the Fat Folks Tarot guidebook for that re-release. Unfortunately, the Kickstarter is closed, but they are wholesaling. I was so excited. I really think the Fat Folks Tarot is some of my best work thus far, because I was so, so passionate about the project.

I also was really excited and honored to write the foreword for Charlie Claire Burgess's upcoming book, Radical Tarot, which is very much in conversation with Queering the Tarot. I wrote the foreword about how great Charlie is and how much I wished I'd had that book. 

For Weiser, I am [editinng] an essay anthology on queer tarot topics. Siri is in it. Meg is in it. Asali. Maria Minnis. Tons of people. I asked my eight closest work colleagues, and they all said yes.

JK: Congratulations. I'm so excited for that.

CS: Thank you.

In addition to my books, I am also a working tarot reader. I do one on one tarot lessons, as well as what I call tarot consultations, which is like, if you're doing art or media and you want to talk to a tarot professional because your work includes cards. That's work I really love to do. Some of my favorite clients are that. 

I am huge into TTRPGs, especially since I'm not really doing theater right now because it is still a pandemic. I am on a podcast called Lesser Evil where I play a Dragonborn non-binary rogue who is a trip. The premise is essentially, what if in Lord of the Rings the bad guys had won, and now it's 200 years later and we're all just living our stupid little corporate lives? It is wherever you listen to podcasts and then it's evil_pod on Instagram. 

SP: For listeners of the Heathens Journey podcast, I am working on getting the second half of season two out, which involves a lot of writing. The thing that has slowed me down the most with that is that I am really focusing on accessibility and trying to get transcriptions of all of my interview episodes out on the Heathenn’s Journey website. As I said earlier, that is really hard when you have to catch all of the Old Norse. My favorite so far was instead of yggdrasil, [the transcript said] “eight poor seals.” I have to really really comb through it. 

JK: I can't imagine how long your transcripts take for the podcast. I mean, each of these interviews that I do, that are usually only between — I mean, this one obviously is a little longer because it's with the three of us — but when it's just me and one other person, that's at least a 45 minute transcript or so, anywhere from five to ten thousand words that I try to edit down to three or four, and that still takes a solid three plus hours of editing.

SP: Thankfully for the audio essays I am reading from a script, but they're six plus hours per episode, which is a lot. I'm very dedicated to accessibility as a disabled person myself, and also being a disabled person, it is difficult for me sometimes to go the speed that I want to. 

But also! My first solo book is coming out with Weiser. It's called Queering the Runes, which is all about Nordic practice runes specifically and looking at them from a gender-fuck perspective and using that for healing. If you look at the canon, we have Loki changing genders, we have Thor cross-dressing, we have Odin changing genders, we have a lot of really interesting gender stuff that is baked in. 

It’s really rich, and it's the ground that I've attempted to cover in the podcast. I would not be surprised if I end up writing a book that is solely based on gender outlaw spirits in the Norse tradition, because there's plenty of that. I tried to shoehorn it into this book, but as I was telling my editor at Weiser, I realized that this book was three books in a trench coat. 

And if you’re interested in runes and Nordic stuff, I am going to be teaching my signature six week Radical Runes course this summer through Catland Books.

JK: Awesome. And everyone should check out all y'all's work because it is so good, and I learned so much from both of you, and you're both just such wonderful teachers in the space and you offer so many wonderful resources, free and paid, that everyone should take advantage of. 

---

Here are all the places to find & support Siri & Cassandra: 

Siri: Patreon, Newsletter, Instagram, Website

Cassandra: Patreon, Newsletter, Instagram, Website

And I cannot recommend Letters from the Empress highly enough.